Mon 5 Mar 2007
Agent fired for extra-curricular activities
Posted by Marlow Harris under Real Estate , Popular Culture
Windermere Real Estate in Kingston, just a short ferry ride across the Sound to Seattle, fired local dancer Ravenna Black because she performs with a burlesque troop The Sinner Saint Burlesque Revue in her off-hours.
I spoke to the designated broker of the office, Carter Dotson, who told me that since agents are independent contractors hired “at will”, they can be let go for any reason, even one that is not related to job performance, and the reason he gave for sending her license back to the State was that her art was “incongruous with the culture of the office”.
Perhaps one can also be let go for political associations, hobbies not approved by management, and other activities pursued in off-time.
Teresa Ellis, the Realtor Diva by Dale Rio
If I was a broker, I would want decent hard-working ethical agents to work for me, smart agents who played by the rules, performed well for their customers and clients, and didn’t get me, themselves or our company in trouble. So I could see how outside activities that I didn’t care for might make me anxious. However, here’s another guy telling a woman what she can or can’t do with her body and the law protects his decision. The themes running through this firing include discrimination, stereotyping, objectification, oppression, and patriarchy. The woman wasn’t doing anything illegal. The fact that it may make the broker uncomfortable or that he doesn’t approve, is not relevant.
We are not one dimensional. Some of us have families, other agents may play sports when they’re not working, or perhaps they volunteer at the local homeless shelter. Others may do crossword puzzles, enjoy opera, have a beer after work or watch pornographic films. None of these things are illegal. Are any of these a basis for firing? Just because one is personally uncomfortable with someone else’s activities, be it extreme sports, homosexuality or burlesque dancing does not make it grounds for dismissal.
Men have historically told women what they can and can’t do with their bodies. It’s happening daily around the world and here in the U.S. where fundamentalists and anti-choice activists find ways to impose their beliefs on everyone else.
Even if you don’t “approve” of what Ravenna is doing or wouldn’t do it yourself, I would think that a rational person would understand and agree that it’s her right to do it and as long as it doesn’t impact her job performance, shouldn’t be the basis or condition of employment.
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March 5th, 2007 at 5:35 am
Yet brokers often turn a blind eye to agents who scam clients, commit fraud, and take their agency duties less than seriously.
March 6th, 2007 at 7:20 am
Norm… as long as those agents are bringing in the revenue… which still does not make it right.
If I was a broker, I’d want these types of agents that are featured in this story. I’d blog about them and try to create a buzz. As long as they were ethical agents and had good business practices… I’d care less what they do when they aren’t selling property in my company’s name (as long as it was legal).
March 7th, 2007 at 12:22 am
I thought about this deplorable firing all afternoon. It’s an even bigger disgrace that the redfin posting had multple, immediate comments, then not a lot of action on this post.
This is an outrage.
The public, the comsumers, have an idea, maybe from cheap theatrics like this, that Windermere upholds a higher standard. They don’t.
Windermere does have market share, political influence, and an attorney on retainer. The public relations are top notch, but this incident strikes a nerve with me.
“Office culture” should strike a nerve with every one who is truly a Real Estate professional.
We are characters. If we ain’t rock stars, burleque queens, Cadillac driving, over the top, around the bend, or close to the edge, we ain’t doin’ enough deals; and if you ain’t doin’ deals, get out of my business.
“Office culture???!!!”
Windermere was started with the best intentions, but John Jacobi was never a Real Estate agent. He did own property and had the noble idea that Real Estate agents should have more professionalism. Sorry, that was a wrong assumption.
To think that a woman, who has the balls to get up in front of people to perform, isn’t suited for Real Estate is another wrong assumption. It takes guts to get out in front of people.
The first rule in Real Estate is that you need to be belly to belly with a whole bunch of people to make it in the business. You need to be out there. It takes a personality to be out there.
The second rule, cardinal rule in Real Estate, is you don’t make money by sitting in the office.
If I’m dancing in the street, or driving in my car, I’m in the office. When I go to parties, which I guess I do regularly, I’m working.
One of the top agents in our profession had an on going discussion during a Sunday Open House about fur underwear. He sold the house and had two people calling him for a month.
Office culture???!!!
What ever you do to keep yourself together, that keeps you in the public eye, in a positive way, is fair game. Sorry if you disagree, go become a lawyer. Go be a doctor to be high and mighty with your office culture, hospital manner.
We are servants that grovel in the dirt for our clients. We are the first line of defense, the last one out of harms way, and constantly brow beaten.
How crazy is that? What do you do to make it another day in this insane business? Do you really think a Sunday Open House ad or your great web site is bringing you business? Nah. Do you think people are attracted by your high sense of professionalism, or is it more likely they are drawn to your cult status as a top producer? When you make it in the business are you getting laid because you are of such high moral character or is it the money, power, and success?
When you reach that stage of success, seriously, how did you get there; rock star, burlesque queen, entertainer, or pirate?
March 7th, 2007 at 12:53 am
David,
I think you need to tell us how you REALLY feel.
March 7th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
This agent was fired because she was a burlesque dancer!? Burlesque dancing is a celebrated art and takes immense talent and training. You can attend a burlesque show at several dignified lounges and restaurants in Seattle including the Triple Door, the Pink Door and the Can Can. Would this agent be fired for acting in Phantom of the Opera at the 5th Ave theatre?
The Kingston Windermere broker and all parties resposible for this agent being fired are truly ignorant. If that office harbors a culture of ignorance then Ravenna is lucky to be moving on.
March 7th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Switters? Are you a fierce invalid from a hot climate? Either way, thank you for your profound observation.
March 10th, 2007 at 7:36 am
I have the suspicion that Windermere might have just done Ravenna a huge favor and launched her real estate career.
Go get ‘em Ravenna.
March 18th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
I’m very conflicted about this post.
I’m put off by the strong feminist language to be honest. As a counter point there is a male teacher in Florida in the process of getting fired for 2 seconds of naked butt viewed from behind at the end of a stage show of “The Full Monty”. No one is crying against the matriachy on his behalf.
I see the problem simply that the entire country has a strong anti-sex bais. Anything other than vannila (preferably low fat) sex can land you in the dogbox.
I read Ravenna’s MySpace blog and seemed like she was immediately the target of a mad rush by other local brokers and she had a new one in Feburary. Point to Maureen on that account.
Predators do actively target female real estate agents to though. Sexualizing your image, then going to a vacant property alone with a stranger seems….
At least high class escorts have a driver sitting outside in the car.
I rambled I know. I don’t think she should have been fired, but not wildly surprised that she was.
March 19th, 2007 at 6:51 am
When oh when will the minimally-endowed white men stop trying to run the world? I know a precedent has been set over the last couple thousand years or so, but really - enough is enough.
March 19th, 2007 at 7:25 am
Athol, you being put off by the “strong feminist language” says more about you than it does about me. I know female equality is still a “new idea” to some, but in Marlow’s World, there’s nothing radical about social, political and economic equality of the sexes.
Thanks for your honesty and comments.
March 21st, 2007 at 10:33 am
Marlow one of your themes in the post was it was it was men telling women what to do with their bodies. My response was that it is prudes telling non-prudes what to do with their bodies.
The feminist language mixed through the post I felt detracted from your most vital points like;
“Perhaps one can also be let go for political associations, hobbies not approved by management, and other activities pursued in off-time.”
“Even if you don’t “approve” of what Ravenna is doing or wouldn’t do it yourself, I would think that a rational person would understand and agree that it’s her right to do it and as long as it doesn’t impact her job performance, shouldn’t be the basis or condition of employment.”
I really do see this as a huge issue facing realtors. It’s specially tricky in that we all to an extent live our lives in public. With our faces in the newspapers constantly, names on signs, big logos on our cars etc. It becomes a very blurred line between private and public life.
In public we do represent our brokerage, and brokerages spend serious money generating the image they want to project. If you’re out in “public” generating a different image, you’re going to be disciplined/fired for it.
It’s a serious issue, I certainly don’t have the answers to it either. I’m conflicted and disturbed by it though. This is I think one of the most important posts I’ve read this year in the RE blogs. Really - I’m still thinking about it.
Also rejecting feminist language doesn’t automatically make me sexist. This issue is important regardless of the sex of the broker and the agents. It’s a privacy issue not a sexism one.
(Anyways, I’ve posted long enough. I have to flip the laundry, put the steak in a marinade, jump in the car and go get my daughters from school. After that I have to work some leads and generate some business, otherwise I’ll have to go back to my old job…. Nursing.)
March 22nd, 2007 at 11:10 pm
Ok Athol. You’ve established yourself as a man in touch with his feminine side
This issue is one of values and morals, but also of sexual politics.
I’ve been thinking more about this too. I think I’ll revisit the topic tomorrow morning….. As you pointed out, the gal in question was rehired by another firm right away.
April 24th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
[…] Note: I wrote several posts about Seattle real estate agent and artist Sarina McDonald, “Agent fired for extra-curricular activities” and “Real estate and sexual politics“. The excitement is dying down a bit, her career is back on track, and she had time to pen this response. Thanks Sarina! Apparently the post about me has sparked some great discussions, to which I would like to respond. […]
December 16th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
I would just be happy to get a real estate agent that works hard, answers my emails/questions immeadiately and keeps my best interest in mind.
Hate to tell all the real estate agents reading this that are horrified at the thought of a stripper agent: Get over it. Your reputation as a whole pretty much sucks.
January 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
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January 29th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
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